Coffee with Genially with Rance Greene

Hello everyone, I'm Kryssia Kipp from Genially, and in this episode I'm with a very amazing person, Rance Greene. I have been contacting him since, I believe, last year, so I'm very excited about this interview today. Rance, welcome to Coffee with Genially. How are you?

I'm doing well, Kryssia. Thank you so much for having me.

The storytelling guy! This is amazing. I have so many interesting questions for you, and I'm sure that our community is very excited to hear your experience and your insights about storytelling, which I'm sure they have read a lot about in your book. You just launched a new course and a book, right?

I did. My book is called Instructional Story Design, so the course, appropriately, is called The Instructional Story Design Experience. It's a six-week cohort at schoolofstorydesign.com, and we just had our first cohort go through it in April, May and June 2024. Man, they are loving it, and I'm so thrilled. I couldn't have asked for a better first cohort experience. We've been having a great time together.

I have read amazing comments about that course and about your book as well. Your book has been recommended for people who are transitioning into instructional design or who are already in the instructional design field, so it is amazing to have you here so we can hear more about it.

Thank you.

So let's start. I would like to start with the question I have asked everyone since we started Coffee with Genially: how did your journey in the instructional design sector begin?

Well, Kryssia, a lot of people now are getting degrees in instructional design, and that's wonderful, but a lot of us arrive at instructional design in a very circuitous way, and that is definitely my story. My background in education is in theater. I have a degree in acting and a master's in choreography, and I moved to New York City. If you're around me for very long, you will hear me use a lot of theater analogies, because I feel there is a very strong connection between the world of theater and the world of training: both of them focus so much on action, and we can talk a little bit about that today.

Then I started in full-time ministry, ministering to young people who lived in inner-city New York. The way I would connect with these young people was through storytelling. I would share personal stories with them, stories of faith, and because I loved them and cared about them, they would share their stories with me. There was a beautiful kind of relationship we had with one another through mutual storytelling.

Then, fast forward a bit, I got my first corporate job. Not my first job, but my first real job in corporate. It was 2008, I had just moved to Texas, and it was not a great time to be looking for a job in the US, because it was a very difficult time financially for the country. I landed a role in a health insurance company, and after maybe two years of working there, I got a role overseeing compliance training. I will say I did not go looking for a health insurance job, and I did not go looking to oversee compliance training, but when they hired me, what they wanted was a storyteller, to transform their compliance training into a more story-based experience. So that is the short version of how I ended up here.

It was just made for you. Wow, it is incredible how you mix choreography, music, everything, and align it with instructional design. It's an incredible background. So what inspired you to focus on storytelling in instructional design, and what are your top techniques for creating engaging stories after this experience?

Sure. Well, I'll answer the first part of that. That first role overseeing compliance training was where they requested that I move their training to a story-based course, which was very intuitive for me. I was very focused on bringing the story to life and then training with it, and I loved it. I didn't know what e-learning was, but I learned how to master that as well. I was a sponge, I just soaked it up. But I came into the industry with a very different set of glasses on.

I was very intent on training people to do things. When I think about the theater world that I came from, it's all about action. It's all about watching people do things on stage while a story unfolds. I'm relating to these characters and I'm feeling the conflict on the stage. I just pushed that same sense over into training. I wanted to train people how to do things, not just know things but do them, and give them new skills. And of course I felt that one of the best ways to do that was through storytelling, because when we watch a story unfold, we're engaged with those characters, we're watching them do things.

So I became, for my stakeholders and my subject matter experts, their biggest advocate and probably their biggest pain in the neck, because I insisted that we train people on skills. In compliance there's a lot of "be aware of our policy" or "understand the dangers of social engineering". There are a lot of very high-level concepts that compliance stakeholders want to get across, but when you talk about performance, like "OK, what do you want them to do?", it's very hard for them to articulate that. So I became a consultant to them. I earned their trust, and I helped them dig down until we found some observable actions that people could actually do as a result of training.

Out of that a technique was born, and this is the second part of your question. The technique that I use is called instructional story design. I wasn't calling it that back then, but I noticed that a lot of my peers at work, and also in the industry at large, were producing training that was a lot of telling: tell, tell, tell, and then test on what I just told you. I was creating stories and then developing activities that help people unearth what's going on in that story, why they feel so unsettled as a result of that story, and giving them practice performing, doing the things that training is supposed to train them to do. For me it was very intuitive to go that route, and I was a little unaware, I suppose, of how others were doing it. So when I started sharing my work with others, they were like, "It's very unique."

Yes, this is unique.

And I didn't perceive it as unique. I just thought it was the best way to do things.

You mention this in your book, right?

Yeah. When I started sharing what I did, people were like, "How do you do that? How do you train with a story?" And I was like, "You write the story and you train with it." And they were like, "Yeah, we don't know how to do that." So that's how the book was born, the workshops were born, and this course was born: to give instructional designers a very humanized way of approaching every step of the instructional design process, from the very first interview with the stakeholder all the way through to producing a final product and sharing the data with stakeholders at the end.

It actually helps you connect with a topic, even if it's complex. In corporate, you want to train your employees, and some terms or steps are very complex, and a story lets them connect with it. It has the power to inspire and motivate.

Yes, it does. Stories have that power, don't they?

Wonderful. What are some key elements of a compelling story that can be used in training?

Kryssia, can I ask you something? When you watch a story, or think about the stories you like to read or watch or listen to, or even tell, what are the components that make it a story, in your view?

The emotions, what it makes me feel. The power of connection that I have when I'm reading it.

That's right. So there's an emotional spark that happens. What are some of the things within the story that make that emotion spark for you?

Wow. I believe it's the connection I have with what I'm reading.

Yeah, absolutely. Within that story, you're right, it's that connection that we have. We're connecting with something very specific, and it's the characters. It's the relatable characters, and when those characters are in conflict, something wonderful happens. So I would say the two key elements of a compelling story are relatable characters and strong conflict. Relatable, because we want our audience to have some empathy for the characters, and strong conflict, because we want to remember that conflict is needed for the story to work. So when you have relatable characters in strong conflict, think about the emotion that you feel when you're watching your story. How would you describe that emotion?

You become more attached. And then you look for the way out, and think about what you would do differently. You start getting more involved with the story.

That's right. You're kind of solving things for the characters, thinking, "How are they going to get out of this?" Excellent. I call that a desire for resolution. When you put relatable characters into strong conflict, it creates a desire for resolution. I have a little graphic here. At the top you have your story: this is your story for training. And down here is the action that you want people to take as a result of training. These two story elements, relatable characters and strong conflict, are the components that must be present in a story for training. And when you put those two things together, it creates what we just talked about: that desire for resolution.

I won't forget that.

And once you're there, that's where you want your learners to be, and that's really where they want to be. That's why we keep watching a story. Then they are open and ready to receive, because there's still this gap here, and it is filled with instruction. That is what completes the connection between the story for training and the action that you want people to take. You've created relatable characters and put them in strong conflict, which has created a desire for resolution, which opens them up to instruction and then inspires the action they need to take as a result of training.

It actually motivates you to look for the right resolution, the right way to solve the problem.

That's right. The training kind of serves as the resolution.

It's a reward, I believe, the reward part at the end of all your training. Wow, it's incredible. I'm actually thinking about all my classes in my bachelor's degree, and how they put you in this kind of situation to solve a problem. So how can stories be tailored to fit different types of training content?

Sure. I would say that regardless of what the training content is, go back to the model, the story design model that we just went through. When you are creating your story for training, for whatever that training content is, your first step, and this is the first step I take as well, is to get to know who that audience is. Who is your learning audience? If you can get to know who your learning audience is, then you can create characters that they will relate to. But if you don't know your learning audience, it's going to be very hard to create relatable characters.

I make an audience profile of every new audience that I speak to, that I train, that I am developing a product for, because I want to know what they're dealing with at work. I want to know what their values are, I want to know what they fear, I want to know what they do in their spare time. I want to know who they are as people, not just brains, and that will help me create characters that are relatable.

Then the second thing I want to know is: what do I want this audience to do? I need to create an action list. We talked about action here: this is the action we want people to take as a result of training. What are those action list items? It can't just be "know the social engineering policy", because you can't observe that. But you can observe someone clicking on the screen to report a phishing email, or you can observe someone smiling at a customer, if it's a customer-first policy type of thing. Get down to the observable actions and put those actions in a logical order to create an action list. Once you've got that action list in good shape, you can put your relatable characters in conflict with the action list, and then you've got a tailor-made story for any training.

It's like writing the script of the story before you start creating the course in any tool.

That's really astute, Kryssia. I do that. I create the story first. I create the audience profile and the action list, and from those I produce the story. After I've created the story, I develop activities that give the learners opportunities to unearth for themselves, to discover for themselves, what's going on in this story that isn't settling right, and then give them practice doing things in the way prescribed by the action list. So you're right: story first.

Story first, write everything first. So what are some common challenges you see when incorporating storytelling into training, or when creating these stories, and how can they be overcome? Some people are starting with this method, they haven't done it before, and they would like to try it and succeed.

Right. Usually the problem with a story that is not working goes back to analysis. Either they don't know who their learning audience is, or they're not really clear about what the learners are supposed to do, and so the story wanders around aimlessly. Or the story is created with no conflict, and everything goes great: all the characters do everything right, which is nothing like real life, because we are humans, we make mistakes, and life has gray areas. So it's not realistic. The story is made in a vacuum, and it has either stereotypical characters or everything just goes great. You read the story and it goes right over your head, or in one ear and out the other, because, OK, everything went great for you, so what? No conflict, no friction: I have no reason to keep paying attention to this story. That is probably the most common type of story that I see in training: there is no conflict there.

Wow. What emerging trends do you see in the use of storytelling for training, and how do you stay current with these trends? I actually remember the ambassador who suggested this question, because he said you're always up with all the trends, writing posts on LinkedIn, and you know about everything. He wondered how you stay current, because it's very difficult: in the learning and development industry a lot of things are happening so fast, with new things coming up, AI, new tools and new techniques. So it is very interesting to hear your opinion about it.

Sure. Well, Kryssia, I have on my side this time-tested technique of using stories to train, which has been used since time immemorial, so training with stories is never going to go out of style. The way you go about creating that story may change, and I can't believe I'm even saying this, but artificial intelligence tools can help with that. In fact, I have been experimenting with some artificial intelligence tools to create stories, and I was pleasantly surprised: when I used the instructional story design method and put in appropriate prompts, it actually spit out some dialogue that wasn't bad. It was a very good starting point for a story.

So my designers and I are exploring ways to help students at the School of Story Design get up on their storytelling feet a little faster, by putting appropriate prompts into an AI tool to generate maybe a first draft of a story, and even tweak it a little as they use that tool. So I would say stay in touch and keep an eye out. Follow the school, and follow me on LinkedIn if you want to stay in touch with how stories can be ethically and effectively created. There are a lot of bold claims that you can just punch something in and something excellent will come out, but you will always need an expert who knows whether what is spit out is actually good. So it's important that you educate yourself: if you are going to be an instructional story designer, you need to know what a good story for training looks like. And then, yes, use the tools to help get you there a little quicker.

That's true. Test it and see what works best for you in your work. Amazing. In your opinion, how can Genially help trainers create engaging stories? From what you have seen, how can our tool help trainers create stories?

Well, first I would say use instructional story design if you're creating stories in Genially. That will help you write the story and get up on your feet quickly to write a compelling story for training. Secondly, when you come into Genially, you might have the same experience that I had when I first came into Genially. I thought, "My goodness, you can do anything in here." It's like this blank, limitless canvas. So spend some time outside of Genially. Sketch with pen and paper, write down some ideas, write down even a rough storyboard of how you want your story to unfold.

Because when you think about it, any kind of artistic, creative pursuit needs constraints. In the world of theater, you have a stage, you have the script, which constrains you, you have budget and time. And you have these same constraints in your work: you have a certain amount of time to get it done, you have certain tools that you can work with, and within those tools there are limitations. These constraints are wonderful, because within those constraints is where creativity really blooms, really blossoms. So spend some time setting some constraints for yourself before you get into Genially.

Then, when you get into Genially, yes, you can break those constraints, but you've got a good, solid place to start from: a good idea of how you want that story to unfold, how you're going to produce it, what the output is going to be, what that end product is going to look like. And then you can choose the tools within Genially to create it in the best way, in the most efficient way. So I would say define your constraints first, then get into the tool and create the story.

Yes, and as we discussed before, it's a blank canvas: you can create anything there, you have all the features right at hand, and then you have the templates if you'd like some inspiration. It's amazing: if you have everything in a draft, or you've created your sketch, it's easy to put all your thoughts on that canvas. Awesome. So do you have any advice for instructional designers on using storytelling in training?

Yeah. If you walk away from this coffee chat and you remember anything, I would say remember this: get to know people. If you're working with stakeholders, get to know those stakeholders as people. If you're working with subject matter experts, get to know them and establish trust with them. If you're working with your own team, establish rapport with those people. Become a team that is committed to humanizing the learning process. And get to know your learners. If you know who you're designing for, you're going to be able to design training that meets them where they're at, and they're going to look back and say, "Hey, whoever designed this, they get me."

Wow, that was amazing advice. It's right, because that's the way you can create relatable characters.

Yes, that's true.

I won't forget that. So, last question. For the past four episodes, we have been asking each guest to suggest a question for our next guest. So, from our amazing ambassador Moe Ash: how do you stay so calm every time? What's your magic recipe? He's always so calm, and I want to know how he does it.

Oh, that is funny. I think, when I go to conferences, or I go online, and I hear people who have more energy in their little pinky than I have in my whole body, I feel a little tinge, because I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I wish I had that kind of pizzazz and could just wow people." I don't have that, and I think I've just embraced it and been able to just enjoy the moment. So I guess I would say I'm just enjoying being with Kryssia right now. I'm enjoying her questions, I'm enjoying our time together, and staying in the moment is, for me, calming. I don't have to worry about what people are thinking about me; I'm just enjoying being with them in the moment. I don't know if that answers the question very well.

You only live once: enjoy the moment. I actually don't know how he does it either. He always looks so calm, and I want to be calm like that too. But that's amazing, he will watch it, and I will let him know as well. So, what would you like to ask our next guest? It's your turn.

Sure. Your next guest might have something to do with digital learning, and I would be interested in hearing their opinion about adaptable learning. So I guess my question would be: do you think that adaptable learning is achievable, and if so, how do you think it will play out?

Wow, that's a great one. I look forward to hearing the answer. I will do it, and I will let you know so you can check out the answer.

You may want to give them a little heads up that I am going to ask that question before they come and interview with you, so they have an answer prepared.

No, no, I will let them know. Thank you very much, Rance, for this interview. I enjoyed it a lot, and I'm sure our community who is watching it right now is enjoying it as well. Thank you for sharing your experience and your insight into storytelling. I learned a lot of things today, so for me it's actually inspiring. Congratulations on your course and on your book: people are still reading it and leaving amazing comments, so this is amazing. Thank you so much for being here today with me and with the Genially community, and I hope we can do some things together with Genially and your storytelling method.

Thank you so much, Kryssia. It has been delightful talking with you, and I look forward to doing something else with you later. Hello, Genially people, and thanks for listening to me today.

Amazing. Thank you so much, everyone, for watching, and see you in the next episode of Coffee with Genially next month. Bye-bye.